Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving 13,000 years old. So the Greek god of wine, intoxication. The big question is, did any of these recipes, did any of this wine spiking actually make its way into some paleo-Christian ceremony. Again, if you're attracted to psychedelics, it's kind of an extreme thing, right? These mysteries had at their center a sacrament called kykeon, which offered a vision of the mysteries of life and death. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . But we do know that something was happening. Maybe part of me is skeptical, right? And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. Administration and supervision endeavors and with strong knowledge in: Online teaching and learning methods, Methods for Teaching Mathematics and Technology Integration for K-12 and College . CHARLES STANG: I have one more question about the pre-Christian story, and that has to do with that the other mystery religion you give such attention to. It's a big question for me. That's because Brian and I have become friends these past several months, and I'll have more to say about that in a moment. Now that the pagan continuity hypothesis is defended, the next task is to show that the pagan and proto-Christian ritual sacraments were, in fact, psychedelicbrews. Some number of people have asked about Egypt. Did the potion at Eleusis change from generation to generation? Or maybe in palliative care. Let me start with the view-- the version of it that I think is less persuasive. Brought to you by Here's your Western Eleusis. Yeah. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. That's all just fancy wordplay. When you start testing, you find things. There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. And part of me really wants to put all these pieces together before I dive in. Now I want to get to the questions, but one last question before we move to the discussion portion. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. And the reason I find that a worthy avenue of pursuit is because when you take a step back and look at the Greek of the Gospels, especially the Greek of John, which is super weird, what I see based on Dennis MacDonald's scholarship that you mentioned-- and others-- when you do the exegesis of John's gospel, there's just lots of vocabulary and lots of imagery that doesn't appear elsewhere. Now, let's get started, Brian. So the event happens, when all the wines run out, here comes Jesus, who's referred to in the Gospels as an [SPEAKING GREEK] in Greek, a drunkard. So thank you, all who have hung with us. And I'll just list them out quickly. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. Several theories address the issue of the origin of the Romanians.The Romanian language descends from the Vulgar Latin dialects spoken in the Roman provinces north of the "Jireek Line" (a proposed notional line separating the predominantly Latin-speaking territories from the Greek-speaking lands in Southeastern Europe) in Late Antiquity.The theory of Daco-Roman continuity argues that the . According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? . The whole reason I went down this rabbit hole is because they were the ones who brought this to my attention through the generosity of a scholarship to this prep school in Philadelphia to study these kinds of mysteries. So those are all possibly different questions to ask and answer. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. But I'm pressing you because that's my job. And that's where oversight comes in handy. There are others claiming that there's drugs everywhere. There's evidence of the mysteries of Dionysus before, during, and after the life of Jesus, it's worth pointing out. Richard Evans Schultes and the Search for Ayahuasca 17 days ago Plants of the Gods: S3E10. I am so fortunate to have been selected to present my thesis, "Mythology and Psychedelics: Taking the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis a Step Further" at. And I did not dare. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? The book proposes a history of religious ritualistic psychedelic use at least as old as the ancient Greek mystery religions, especially those starting in Eleusis and dating to roughly 2,000 BC. CHARLES STANG: All right. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact." What was the wine in the early Eucharist? Its proponents maintain that the affable, plump old fellow associated with Christmas derives from the character of Arctic medical practitioners. I'm going to stop asking my questions, although I have a million more, as you well know, and instead try to ventriloquist the questions that are coming through at quite a clip through the Q&A. That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. Which, again, what I see are small groups of people getting together to commune with the dead. The fact that the Vatican sits in Rome today is not an accident, I think, is the shortest way to answer that. So back in 2012, archaeologists and chemists were scraping some of these giant limestone troughs, and out pops calcium oxalate, which is one of these biomarkers for the fermentation of brewing. I took this to Greg [? Psychedelics Today: PTSF 35 (with Brian Muraresku) Griffithsfund.org So at the very-- after the first half of the book is over, there's an epilogue, and I say, OK, here's the evidence. Little attempt has been made, however, to bridge the gap between \"pagan\" and \"Christian\" or to examine late antique, Christian attitudes toward sexuality and marriage from the viewpoint of the \"average\" Christian. The (Mistaken) Conspiracy Theory: In the Late Middle Ages, religious elites created a new, and mistaken, intellectual framework out of Christian heresy and theology concerning demons. And I don't know if there's other examples of such things. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. One attendee has asked, "How have religious leaders reacted so far to your book? Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. And I think that we would behoove ourselves to incorporate, resuscitate, maybe, some of those techniques that seem to have been employed by the Greeks at Eleusis or by the Dionysians or some of these earliest Christians. BRIAN MURARESKU: That's a good question. It draws attention to this material. Where does Western civilization come from? BRIAN MURARESKU: Great question. I've no doubt that Brian has unearthed and collected a remarkable body of evidence, but evidence of what, exactly? I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. I'm not sure where it falls. And I think we get hung up on the jargon. And considering the common background of modern religions (the Pagan Continuity hypothesis), any religious group who thinks they are chosen or correct are promoting a simplistic and ignorant view of our past. And this is at a time when we're still hunting and gathering. Let's move to early Christian. What's different about the Dionysian mysteries, and what evidence, direct or indirect, do we have about the wine of Dionysus being psychedelic? And according to Wasson, Hofmann, and Ruck, that barley was really a code word. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. And he found some beer and wine-- that was a bit surprising. I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. Well, the reason I mention Hippolytus and Marcus and focus on that in my evidence is because there's evidence of the Valentinians, who influenced Marcus, in and around Rome. But curiously, it's evidence for a eye ointment which is supposed to induce visions and was used as part of a liturgy in the cult of Mithras. So that, actually, is the key to the immortality key. What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. That's, just absurd. So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. If beer was there that long ago, what kind of beer was it? And I look forward to talking about this event with you after the fact eventually over a beer. I don't know why it's happening now, but we're finally taking a look. This is true. What I see is data that's been largely neglected, and I think what serves this as a discipline is just that. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. Lots of Greek artifacts, lots of Greek signifiers. What does it mean to die before dying? To some degree, I think you're looking back to southern Italy from the perspective of the supremacy of Rome, which is not the case in the first century. And if it only occurs in John, the big question is why. That is about the future rather than the ancient history. Because ergot is just very common. So your presentation of early Christianity inclines heavily toward the Greek world. And what, if any, was the relationship between those ancient Greeks and the real religion of the earliest Christians, who might call the paleo-Christians. So again, if there were an early psychedelic sacrament that was being suppressed, I'd expect that the suppressors would talk about it. Here is how I propose we are to proceed. And I think that that's the real question here. And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. And that's not how it works today, and I don't think that's how it works in antiquity. Thank you. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. OK, Brian, I invite you to join us now. In 1950, Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote " The Influence of the Mystery Religions on Christianity " which describes the continuity from the Pagan, pre-Christian world to what would become early Christianity in the decades and centuries before Jesus Religion & Mystical Experiences, Wine I want to thank you for putting up with me and my questions. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. So the closer we get to the modern period, we're starting to find beer, wine mixed with interesting things. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. So what I think we have here in this ergtotized beer drink from Catalonia, Spain, and in this weird witch's brew from 79 AD in Pompeii, I describe it, until I see evidence otherwise, as some of the very first heart scientific data for the actual existence of actual spiked wine in classical antiquity, which I think is a really big point. So you were unable to test the vessels on site in Eleusis, which is what led you to, if I have this argument right, to Greek colonies around the Mediterranean. When there's a clear tonal distinction, and an existing precedent for Christian modification to Pagan works, I don't see why you're resistant to the idea, and I'm curious . What is its connection to Eleusis? Maybe I'm afraid I'll take the psychedelic and I won't have what is reported in the literature from Hopkins and NYU. Let me just pull up my notes here. And even in the New Testament, you'll see wine spiked with myrrh, for example, that's served to Jesus at his crucifixion. Are they rolling their eyes, or are you getting sort of secretive knowing nods of agreement? But this clearly involved some kind of technical know-how and the ability to concoct these things that, in order to keep them safe and efficacious, would not have been very widespread, I don't think. And what we find at this farmhouse is a sanctuary that Enriqueta Pons herself, the archaeologist who's been on site since 1990, she calls it some kind of sanctuary dedicated to the goddesses of the mysteries. As a matter of fact, I think it's much more promising and much more fertile for scholarship to suggest that some of the earliest Christians may have availed themselves of a psychedelic sacrament and may have interpreted the Last Supper as some kind of invitation to open psychedelia, that mystical supper as the orthodox call it, [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]. What about Jesus as a Jew? These sources suggest a much greater degree of continuity with pre-Christian values and practice than the writings of more . So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. I did go straight to [INAUDIBLE] Papangelli in Eleusis, and I went to the museum. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. I mean, I wish it were easier. It's arguably not the case in the third century. And I think there are lots of reasons to believe that. And you find terracotta heads that could or could not be representative of Demeter and Persephone, the two goddesses to whom the mysteries of Eleusis were dedicated. There have been really dramatic studies from Hopkins and NYU about the ability of psilocybin at the end of life to curb things like depression, anxiety, and end of life distress. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? They minimized or completely removed the Jewish debates found in the New Testament, and they took on a style that was more palatable to the wider pagan world. I think psychedelics are just one piece of the puzzle. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. The continuity theory proposes that older adults maintain the same activities, behaviors, personalities, and relationships of the past. Thank you. difficult to arrive at any conclusive hypothesis. Why don't we turn the tables and ask you what questions you think need to be posed? I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. But you will be consoled to know that someone else will be-- I will be there, but someone else will be leading that conversation. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. He's the god of wine. I'm paraphrasing this one. So I want to propose that we stage this play in two acts. You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. This book by Brian Muraresku, attempts to answer this question by delving into the history of ancient secret religions dating back thousands of years. So I see-- you're moving back and forth between these two. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. So welcome to the fourth event in our yearlong series on psychedelics and the future of religion, co-sponsored by the Esalen Institute, the Riverstyx Foundation, and the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines. So this is interesting. These were Greek-- I've seen them referred to as Greek Vikings by Peter Kingsley, Vikings who came from Ionia. What about all these early Christians themselves as essentially Jews? You mentioned, too, early churchmen, experts in heresies by the name of Irenaeus of Lyons and Hippolytus of Rome. These are famous figures to those of us who study early Christianity. Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. CHARLES STANG: OK, that is the big question. Because for many, many years, you know, Ruck's career takes a bit of a nosedive. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. So I point to that evidence as illustrative of the possibility that the Christians could, in fact, have gotten their hands on an actual wine. Now, here's-- let's tack away from hard, scientific, archaeobotanical evidence for a moment. But clearly, when you're thinking about ancient Egypt or elsewhere, there's definitely a funerary tradition. But please do know that we will forward all these questions to Brian so he will know the sorts of questions his work prompts. Here's what we don't. And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. And so how far should this investigation go? They linked the idea of witches to an imagined organized sect which was a danger to the Christian commonwealth. I do the same thing in the afterword at the very end of the book, where it's lots of, here's what we know. Like in Israel. So you lean on the good work of Harvard's own Arthur Darby Nock, and more recently, the work of Dennis McDonald at Claremont School of Theology, to suggest that the author of the Gospel of John deliberately paints Jesus and his Eucharist in the colors of Dionysus. In this way, the two traditions coexisted in a syncretic form for some time before . Not in every single case, obviously. CHARLES STANG: Well, Mr, Muraresku, you are hedging your bets here in a way that you do not necessarily hedge your bets in the book. We have some inscriptions. would certainly appreciate. All that will be announced through our mailing list. I mean, the honest answer is not much. And you're right. 7:30 The three pillars to the work: the Eucharist as a continuation of the pharmako and Dionysian mysteries; the Pagan continuity theory; and the idea that through the mysteries "We can die before we die so that when we die we do not die" 13:00 What does "blood of Christ" actually mean; the implied and literal cannibalism So let's start with one that is more contemporary. So let's start, then, the first act. So Brian, I wonder, maybe we should give the floor to you and ask you to speak about, what are the questions you think both ancient historians such as myself should be asking that we're not, and maybe what are the sorts of questions that people who aren't ancient historians but who are drawn to this evidence, to your narrative, and to the present and the future of religion, what sort of questions should they be asking regarding psychedelics? First, the continuity of the offices must be seen in light of the change of institutional charges; they had lost their religious connotations and had become secular. Church of the Saints Faustina and Liberata, view from the outside with the entrance enclosure, at "Sante" place, Capo di Ponte (Italy). Do the drugs, Dr. Stang? I try to be careful to always land on a lawyer's feet and be very honest with you and everybody else about where this goes from here. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. And in his book [? I understand more papers are about to be published on this. First, I will provide definitions for the terms "pagan", "Christian", But things that sound intensely powerful. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. Joe Campbell puts it best that what we're after is an experience of being alive. I appreciate this. In this hypothesis, both widely accepted and widely criticized,11 'American' was synonymous with 'North American'. There's all kinds of reasons I haven't done it. I mean, I think the book makes it clear. Brian launched the instant bestseller on the Joe Rogan Experience, and has now appeared on CNN, NPR, Sirius XM, Goop-- I don't even know what that is-- and The Weekly Dish with Andrew Sullivan. The question is, what will happen in the future. There's no mistake in her mind that it was Greek. It was one of the early write-ups of the psilocybin studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. 36:57 Drug-spiked wine . In my previous posts on the continuity hypothesis . Do you think that the Christians as a nascent cult adapted a highly effective psycho technology that was rattling . So we not only didn't have the engineering know-how-- we used to think-- we didn't have even settled life to construct something like this. And the big question is, what is this thing doing there in the middle of nowhere? And so I do see an avenue, like I kind of obliquely mentioned, but I do think there's an avenue within organized religion and for people who dedicate their lives as religious professionals to ministry to perhaps take a look at this in places where it might work. So what do we know about those rituals? If we're being honest with ourselves, when you've drunk-- and I've drunk that wine-- I didn't necessarily feel that I'd become one with Jesus. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More Brought to you by GiveWell.org charity research and effective giving and 5-Bullet Friday, my very own email newsletter. It's not the case in the second century. So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. Read more about The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku Making Sense by Sam Harris The book was published by Saint Martin's Press in September 2020 and has generated a whirlwind of attention. And another: in defending the pagan continuity hypothesis, Muraresku presumes a somewhat non-Jewish, pagan-like Jesus, while ignoring the growing body of psychedelic literature, including works by . But even if they're telling the truth about this, even if it is accurate about Marcus that he used a love potion, a love potion isn't a Eucharist. The Tim Ferriss Show. Maybe there's a spark of the divine within. If they've been doing this, as you suggest, for 2,000 years, nearly, what makes you think that a few ancient historians are going to turn that aircraft carrier around? Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. The pagan continuity hypothesis at the heart of this book made sense to me. Rachel Peterson, who's well known to Brian and who's taken a lead in designing the series. 101. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. What, if any, was the relationship between this Greek sanctuary-- a very Greek sanctuary, by the way-- in Catalonia, to the mysteries of Eleusis? Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . All rights reserved. He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. He comes to this research with a full suite of scholarly skills, including a deep knowledge of Greek and Latin as well as facility in a number of European languages, which became crucial for uncovering some rather obscure research in Catalan, and also for sweet-talking the gatekeepers of archives and archaeological sites. That also only occurs in John, another epithet of Dionysus. 55 This is very likely as it seems that the process had already started in the 4th century. I expect there will be. And I feel like I accomplished that in the afterword to my book. And I don't know what that looks like. I would have been happy to find a spiked wine anywhere. And that's all I present it as, is wonderfully attractive and maybe even sexy circumstantial evidence for the potential use of a psychedelic sacrament amongst the earliest Christians. BRIAN MURARESKU:: It's a simple formula, Charlie. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. And let's start with our earliest evidence from the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. I'm going to come back to that idea of proof of concept.
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